How to get your confidence back (Transcript)

Please note the following transcript may not exactly match the final audio, as minor edits or adjustments could be made during production.

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Fixable from the TED Audio Collective. I'm your host, Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach. 

[00:00:11] Frances Frei: And I'm your co-host, Frances Frei. I'm a Harvard Business School professor, and I'm Anne's wife. 

[00:00:17] Anne Morriss: Frances, today we are back to fixing things. 

[00:00:21] Frances Frei: Oh, goodness. Yes. 

[00:00:24] Anne Morriss: Come on, a little enthusiasm.

I'm feeling good about this one. Our caller is Emma, which is not her real name. She's a product manager at a tech company who wants to be seen as more of a leader by her senior colleagues. 

[00:00:38] Emma: Hi, Anne and Frances. I am a 28-year-old product manager working for a tech company in Australia. I feel like I've spent my entire life being told that my naturally confident and, and assertive nature is something to hide.

I've had teachers, friends, even family members constantly tell me that I came across as aggressive or even bitchy to the point where it just felt like it was easier to conform and to sort of stifle myself. I was wondering if you have any advice on how to navigate this change required of me at this point in my career when I feel like I've spent so long being persecuted for the skills required.

[00:01:19] Frances Frei: Oh, I feel seen. I was often told early on that if I could just, if I could just tone it down, people would be able to hear me better. And that feedback, by the way, was always by people trying to be helpful. 

[00:01:32] Anne Morriss: Yeah, I, I remember that. And I remember it was often coming from people who were really rooting for you.

I saw you in this story, which is why I was excited to bring on this caller. I feel like there's a lot we can all learn from and maybe we can process a couple things along the way. 

[00:01:52] Frances Frei: Oh, let's fix it. Let's fix it for Emma and for all the Emmas.

[00:02:06] Anne Morriss: Emma, welcome to Fixable. 

[00:02:08] Emma: Hi, glad to be here. 

[00:02:09] Anne Morriss: So just to kick us off, we'd love to start with a little bit of context just for our listeners. So tell us about your career path so far. 

[00:02:18] Emma: It's been a little bit of a jagged line. I tried to start everything with the confidence of, I, I think I can do this, or I know what I wanna say, and I feel like I have quite a mind for understanding things quite quickly.

So it meant that I felt okay to jump in and not just sit back and be super subservient and just listen the whole time, but that kind of didn't strike people the best way all the time, and ended up with me putting off some people, making some pretty uncomfortable relationships and not a great name for myself as somebody who was working and expected to be a little bit less, a little bit quieter, should just be doing the work, that kind of thing.

[00:02:58] Anne Morriss: Yep. And then how did you adapt or respond to the feedback? 

[00:03:03] Emma: I, I essentially just shifted, tried to shift my whole way of looking at things the way that I would do things, from not directly looking people in the eye all the time, always making sure that I smile, always putting emojis into my slack messages when I message people.

'Cause I didn't wanna come across as too harsh, or adding things like "does that make sense" at the end of every sentence, or I would have to consciously stop myself from saying something. So I just made this very conscious effort to kind of shift myself so far in the other direction. 

[00:03:32] Anne Morriss: So what, where are you experiencing friction now at work? 

[00:03:36] Emma: I'm starting this new segment within our organization, which is brand new. I'm leading the charge, I'm setting the strategic direction, and it was something that I needed to kind of get-- 

[00:03:46] Anne Morriss: So can I just underscore like, that's, congratulations. Like you-- 

[00:03:51] Emma: Thank you. 

[00:03:52] Anne Morriss: You have been handed a lot of responsibility at a moment that matters for this organization, so you're doing a whole bunch of things right, to be having this high quality problem. 

[00:04:03] Emma: Yeah, it was really exciting for me, and I think where my internal frustration has come when I did this presentation to some very, very senior stakeholders within the organization and just fell right back into the way where very subservient and constantly undermining the stuff that I said, 'cause I really let it get to my head that all of these people were way above my level. And so I had direct feedback from my manager essentially just saying that I dropped the ball really. And, and he meant it in a way that was trying to help me encourage, uh, improve myself. But it was very hard to swallow.

And I think I've lost a little bit of trajectory within my career as a result of that kind of being my moment to dazzle and unfortunately falling short. 

[00:04:51] Anne Morriss: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we have all been there . We have, we have all been there. 

[00:04:57] Emma: I, I have a lot of anxiety and so I, I feel like that's why I am at these extremes.

And so I guess I was just wondering on the advice of like, how I can still keep being myself, managing those interpersonal relationships, but also be able to feel confident in, in standing my ground and going into a room of people who are quite a bit more senior than me and, and backing the knowledge that I have. 

[00:05:21] Anne Morriss: Beautifully articulated.

I think I have a sense for how effective you can be in the workplace. Yeah. I had a boss who described it as guardrail to guardrail when she was coaching me. Stop going guardrail to guardrail, Anne. Um, all right, Frances, I think I have a sense of this, but can, first of all, I wanna invite you into the conversation.

What other questions do you have? And then maybe you can kind of summarize where we are. 

[00:05:44] Frances Frei: Yeah. So I'm super optimistic that we're gonna get there, Emma. You lost confidence in being you, and that is really hard to know how to play a part because there's no check and balance. If I have to know, am I being, I could just be like, well, am I being authentic?

And I can reflect on it. But when you're trying to be someone else, it is . Impossible for us to have a good barometer with it. So what we are gonna do is help you transition to taking the lessons, the good from the advice and making it authentically you, and shed the stuff that wasn't needed. 

[00:06:25] Anne Morriss: I get the sense that, that you're beating yourself up a little bit for kind of this problem and the historic path that led you here. 

And first of all, I cannot tell you, and Frances and I are quite credible. I cannot tell you how common this challenge is for all people. Trying to figure out what your leadership voice is, as you evolve in an organization, as you gain credibility. Like the number of incredible leaders who have swung and missed at their first time, trying to influence people who are more senior to them is a hundred percent , right?

You are in incredible company, and part of the challenge . Is to not load, right? Those, those swings and misses up with a heavy story that's gonna get in the way of your continued evolution. So first of all, congratulations on the tension and friction because it means you're ready to try something new. So that's a, that's like an awesome fucking sign.

Brava. But also in some ways we don't really care how you got here. Right? It's interesting context because it, it helps us understand the story and it helps us figure out the foothold, but in some ways it is not particularly relevant to what you get to do next. And I just want to invite you to try that on, because there's a lot of, there's a lot of history that's, that's showing up in the telling of the story. And I want you to just play with the radical idea that that history may not matter at all. What's your reaction to that? 

[00:08:18] Emma: That is wild . It's, yeah, I think it's, it's a very interesting thought and it's honestly something that I struggle with day to day, is like letting go of history and just kind of moving towards the now.

Um, I think I, I carry a lot of baggage with me, so it's, it's definitely a radical thought. 

[00:08:39] Anne Morriss: Yeah. And I, what I wanna play with in this conversation is what might it feel like in terms of what's available to you to put, just put the baggage on the ground for a second. Doesn't mean you can't go back to it.

it doesn't mean we can't pick it up on the, but we're just gonna put it down for a second as we kind of play with, with like what's on the dropdown menu? 

[00:09:01] Frances Frei: Yeah, I mean it, you can name the suitcases. 

[00:09:05] Anne Morriss: Totally . 

[00:09:06] Frances Frei: You can bring them out at like convenient times. But for right now, just gonna put 'em down. We're not gonna ask you to do anything unnatural, shed it completely, but just put 'em over there. 

[00:09:15] Anne Morriss: At this point in the conversation, we might gain some ambition as we go. If we're gonna name the bags that we're dragging around, one of those bags is this story that you are too much. 

[00:09:27] Frances Frei: And you are not . 

[00:09:30] Anne Morriss: What I hear your boss saying is, we're not getting enough of you.

Not only are you not too much, but I want more. 

[00:09:42] Emma: Yeah. Okay, I am gonna name my baggage Steve . 

[00:09:45] Anne Morriss: Okay. Right. So Steve, like Steve is the, is the, I am too much story. Right? Uh, so if we put Steve down for a second. And, because the other thing, um, this, I'm running with this metaphor, but the baggage is on the ground, so our gaze is down.

So Steve's on the ground. So our gaze is up. And there are people in front of you who are saying, I want more of you. I'm not getting enough of you. 

[00:10:13] Emma: Yeah, I think it just, I mean, it's genuinely something I've never really actually tried to do and I like the metaphor of it all and the physical sort of nature of it.

I'm very much a kind of picture the things person . Not to be too harsh on myself, but maybe it's been a little bit of a crutch as well of like, well, I don't have to put myself out there and do this thing, because people have told me in the past that they don't like it when I put myself out there or when I have this confidence, and that's potentially why a little bit I keep falling back into this and because it's those extremes because it isn't a, I'm not seeing it as a good thing. I'm seeing it as just like a, here's my safe state. Instead of, this is somewhere I could work back towards, dependent on the need. 

[00:10:58] Anne Morriss: That's very profound. 

[00:11:00] Frances Frei: It's super profound observation. Yeah, 'cause what you're saying is that it's, it's almost safer when we try to be someone else because then we don't have to take the experience all that personally. And so it's almost a kind of armor. I'm gonna put on the armor of someone else. And I think armor's probably the right word. And for you to make the impact that you need to make in the world, you gotta take off the armor.

So one of them is we have to get you in a place that you're comfortable enough to have the courage to be you one. First we want you to believe that you more you is needed, and then we wanna try to inject some courage to do it 'cause you haven't done it for a while. And like anything else, it's just gonna take a little bit of momentum.

[00:11:43] Anne Morriss: Yeah, and what I love about what you just said, Emma, is like all of the power is in recognizing your agency in this whole narrative. Which is, you chose to hold onto that story that I am too much. And now you're gonna use that agency to explore what's on the other side. And you may not know what that is yet, but that's half the fun of this whole fucking adventure, right?

So what do you want to be on the other side?

[00:12:14] Emma: I would like to be confident in myself, my communication style, the way that I talk to people, but also what I'm doing in a way that doesn't make me doubt myself after every meeting that I have or every conversation that I have, I would just love to be able to feel a sort of sense of peace, knowing that other people are taking in what I'm saying and respect it, respond to it, in, in the right way. 

[00:12:43] Anne Morriss: When do you feel that kind of confidence now in your life? 

[00:12:48] Emma: I, I weirdly feel it sometimes at work, but it's really only with people who are sort of at that same level as me that I've developed that friendship with. So it's that sort of security of, you know, I know you, I know I can be honest with you.

I know that you know who I am as a person, and that if I'm being direct, it's not because I'm aggressive, it's because of the reason I believe in this. 

[00:13:09] Anne Morriss: Yeah. Great. I wanna take a second to talk about confidence. So confidence is often a byproduct from being trusted in a leadership role. And one of the frameworks that Frances and I use a lot in our work is the idea of a trust triangle.

So, longtime listeners, you'll remember we did a whole episode about this concept. We bring it up a lot. Uh, if you're, if you're new here, please go check it out, but Professor Frei, give us the headline summary. Uh, what's a trust triangle? 

[00:13:42] Frances Frei: Yeah. And so the three pillars of trust are that you are more likely to trust me if you experience these three things from me simultaneously.

One is that you experience my authenticity. That's the real me. What I mean by that is do you get the sense that what I'm thinking matches what I'm saying and matches how I'm behaving? So it's think, say, act. Are they mutually reinforcing? That's authenticity. . If you do, we're on our way to trust. Doesn't guarantee it.

If I doubt your authenticity, you can't make up for it with an overabundance of logic or empathy. Super sadly. I really wish you could , but you can't. So that's the authenticity part. The logic part, I think is the more straightforward part. Like, am I using sound logic and sound reasoning and is what I'm saying, like self contradicting or does it, like, is it aligned?

Is it sort of tight? And usually we have to provide a bit of transparency into how we got there for people to believe it. So black box logic doesn't always lead to trust, so you have to have a little bit of transparency for it. Now, you could experience my authenticity and my logic, and I still might not earn your trust if you don't also experience my empathy. And the shorthand for empathy is, do you get the sense that I am in it for you?

So in this conversation, if I was trying to show you how good I am, I would be, I would overemphasize my logic and my authenticity, and I might forget the empathy part of it. So we need all three of them, and every single time that trust is not there, it's always one of these three things. The quite liberating thing is you don't ever have to look for a fourth or a fifth or a sixth.

If we give you authenticity, logic, and empathy, and we ask you to consider the stakeholders, perhaps the senior leaders that were in that room, which one of these three things, it's a multiple choice question, do you think they doubted about you? It sounds like you weren't able to build trust with them.

Um, what I'm asking you for is, which is your wobble? That's a deliberately playful word, which is unsteady and it can come back up again. So we need an accurate diagnosis so that we can use a customized and clever prescription. If you had to channel the senior team or the senior people that you were talking with and we asked them, which of these three did they doubt about you, what do you think they would say?

[00:16:18] Emma: I think I went a little bit, well, quite a lot heavy on the empathy and it sort of, um, counteracted my credibility on, on the other side. The logic was there, it was a presentation with a pitch deck, a slide deck. I'd done the work. I knew it inside and out, and I've had conversations with some of these people before, but I just think that my authenticity came across as really lacking because it didn't obviously sound like I believed in what I was saying, or I was backing up what I was saying.

[00:16:46] Frances Frei: So I'm just gonna give the final bit of language and then I'm gonna hand it off to Anne, 'cause you two have a lot in common. So , so what I just heard from you is that you had in, at least in this experience, an authenticity wobble. The other word we use here is, which one is your anchor? Like which one was the one that was really strong?

And it sounds like it might have been an empathy anchor and an authenticity wobble. It's a really common situation and it's one that Anne can help share some insight into. 

[00:17:14] Anne Morriss: Yeah. And the reason we took this detour, I'm still thinking about freeing you up from your history a little bit. So one way to think about the story up to this point is you got some feedback early on in your career that you were coming in very strong on authenticity, and it was, it was coming at the expense of the people around you feeling like they were being seen and heard and being factored into your decision. So you were coming in strong on logic and empathy. Super powerful combination by the way. And so you got the feedback and so you dialed up the signals of empathy and it allowed you to work in these groups, particularly coming in in a, a low status role. That is a super rational response to the situation, , right?

Super rational response. And now you're given the ball. And you, you bring that pattern and that tactic into the room. And it didn't work with this new audience. Great. Now you're gonna adapt and, and pick another tactic here, okay? And we're gonna make sure that that authenticity is firing as much as the empathy and as much as the logic.

So this is an audience of senior leaders, right? So what empathy means to them, uh, is gonna be different than what it means to your junior colleagues. And what they need to know is that you care about what they care about. You get the things that are important to them. So signaling empathy in that room is not about you being deferential. That was an important part of a strategy earlier in your career. Because people are like, who is this chick? Right? Who is this chick? But you have to signal to those stakeholders that their interests are also your interests, right? And that takes connecting that logic story to the things that are keeping these guys up every night.

[00:19:06] Frances Frei: And if I was gonna summarize what Anne and I just gave and then I would get love to get your reaction. Anne's point that you started like really strong on authenticity and sacrificing empathy and then you overcorrected to really strong on empathy and sacrificing on authenticity. It's because in the way in which you have inhabited these two, they feel like they have to trade off.

We're gonna show you that they don't. 

[00:19:29] Anne Morriss: Right. This is, our entire detour towards the trust triangle is, you need, you need not only do they not trade off, but without all three of them firing, other people will be unwilling to be guided by you, which is the core metric of leadership that we look for. 

[00:19:45] Frances Frei: So you're gonna have to change a little, but the little bit is to stop behaving in a way that these two trade off against each other.

So first I'd love to just hear your reaction to this whole, this whole thing. 

[00:19:58] Emma: Uh, I think it makes a lot of sense. It sort of summarizes, I guess, why I would come across as quite a polarizing person because it's almost like I have split personality where one day I am focusing on one thing and then focusing on the other and, um, sort of haven't been able to land in the middle to do all of those things. So I'm imagining that, you know, I've managed to skate by, because I might have evened out some of that triangle with interpersonal relationships outside of these kinds of meetings and that stuff, but, um, it's, yeah, it's a really interesting thought process. And I also loved what you said about when you come in really strong, um, I'm not showing empathy to other people of sort of understanding what they wanna say and giving them a chance to say it. Um, I, because I'm very much an empathy based person in my entire life, you know, outside of work, and so I think that that's a really different way of looking at it that I haven't before.

[00:20:54] Frances Frei: What's gonna be really beautiful about that, Emma, is that just, I could watch you as you were saying that the light bulb went off when you did that. Like you didn't realize that maybe speaking first and speaking strong first, how that affects the rest of the room and it might not have been empathetic to the rest of the room. You'll, you now, it will be difficult for you to speak strong and first without seeing it. Like once the light bulb goes on, 'cause you, it is your innate empathy, it's gonna, so that's all we're gonna do is just turn on a few light bulbs in the rest of this conversation. 

[00:21:28] Anne Morriss: And that's, I mean, and that again, that's why we're, we, we took the, this trust triangle detour is also because this story of like, oh, and by the way, everyone starts their career by picking one . Like just like go in with what their instincts are and then learn that like there's a pattern and if they wanna bring people with them, right? Because we're doing this in collaboration with other people, that we gotta get all three of those firing. And the story could be as simple as that. Like back to the baggage on the floor, instead of this big bag named Steve, it could be this little carry-on called trust, right? You could look at the same data points and fit them into this little carry-on . I just wanna invite you to, to stay open to that idea as you figure out where to go next year.

And so now I wanna pick another topic for us to just play with, which is this idea of confidence. How do you get it? How do you keep it? In my experience, it is an overrated emotion, right? We all want it. We're all craving it. It is typically a byproduct of taking action and mastering something, not a prerequisite.

We all want it to be, we wanna feel confident before we take the step, but typically, confidence follows the step. That's a starting point. So how do you kind of accelerate that journey? There's a couple things we know works. Preparation works well for this, right? So one way to feel more confident in that room with that senior leader is to give that presentation to other people.

Preferably like dial up the stakes. Maybe start with your friends, but then bring it, you know, again and again and again. You wanna see someone do this well? Watch Nikki Glaser in action. Just watch the 10 minutes of her roasting Tom Brady, and then compare her to everyone else who got on that stage.

So she did the work to understand the assignment, did the work to prepare relentlessly. Brought down the house, standing ovation. Was at a different level than anybody else on that stage. That was all preparation. Plus talent, right? Comedic instincts . But you have that. You have that in spades. You are obviously very talented, right?

So now we get to play with like how, how do you feel good about taking up space? So one of that is preparation. It's not always possible. Sometimes that meeting with the senior team is gonna be spontaneous. Practice with discomfort. So this can be practice taking up space in all kinds of different ways, but there's gonna be a whole part of this journey to finding your leadership voice.

And by the way, it is a lifelong journey, right? To really finding and using that leadership voice that is about getting comfort with the discomfort of the journey along the way, and then having the discipline to not over index on those moments where that learning accelerates because you didn't get it exactly right.

[00:24:46] Emma: I think that's probably my biggest issue, um, being comfortable with discomfort. I, yeah, I'm not someone who enjoys or likes to put myself into scenarios. I would rather over prepare to try and avoid that at all costs. And then I have been known to, I have anxiety and rejection sensitivity, so if I get bad feedback or if I think it's not going well, my anxiety physically inhabits my body and I will feel numb or start sweating and I just, I'm not quite comfortable with the comfort .

[00:25:20] Anne Morriss: Are you willing to push on this one? 

[00:25:24] Emma: Yeah, definitely. 

[00:25:27] Anne Morriss: I think if I were to gonna come up with like, what is a plan for Emma, I do think there's a pillar of that plan that is about just getting your nervous system comfortable with that sensation. Because here's where I am in this conversation, selfishly, as someone who shares a planet with you, to have the maximum impact you can have on organizations. I'm now, I'm invested because I think you have a ton to contribute.

[00:25:56] Emma: Thank you. I would love to contribute . 

[00:25:59] Anne Morriss: Yeah. So this issue is, the only way for you to get there is for you to be willing to push on this part of it. 

[00:26:09] Frances Frei: We can give you tactics on how to get better at it, but we can't give you willingness, which is why Anne is stressing this point. 

[00:26:17] Emma: I am definitely willing.

I think, um, this whole coming on the show and this whole sort of really, um, having an internal look at myself and why I'm at this point and, and self-reflecting, um, it, it's not a journey that I'm taking lightly, and it's something that I'm really seriously committed to doing because I am at this stage of my career where I want to make sure I am progressing and I wanna be able to take these next steps.

And so, yeah, I'm definitely committed to the process. 

[00:26:47] Frances Frei: So now we're gonna have some fun because we're gonna give you just a bunch of rapid fire suggestions of ways to practice with discomfort. And what you're gonna see is the great variety in them. How some of them are even playful in it. But Anne, I'll start.

[00:27:03] Anne Morriss: Please. Because I'm back at the airport. I wanna leave all the baggage, right? I want you to just walk outta the airport with none of it. 

[00:27:12] Frances Frei: I think the, the trust carry on is gonna be like a little laminated card to go in your wallet. 

[00:27:17] Anne Morriss: Yes. You can bring the trust card, 'cause you're gonna need to be reminded.

Yeah. You just need to balance these three. 

[00:27:22] Frances Frei: So. Participating in amateur improv. 

[00:27:25] Anne Morriss: Look at you advocating for improv.

[00:27:28] Frances Frei: And I'll tell you why. No preparation helps. 

Yeah, because that's what's fun about improv, is you can only react to what the other person said. Now, and I got to watch your nonverbal reaction, but give our listeners a sense of your, use your words for the, add some transparency for our listeners to your reaction to that suggestion.

[00:27:50] Emma: Extreme anxiety . I think with that, uh, it's like the fear of, of people seeing me and coming across foolish. So I guess, uh, I inherently, like I said, I do want to take these steps, but I would wonder if there's something that's maybe a little bit of a more of a baby step. 

[00:28:09] Frances Frei: So we will, so we'll get there. Lemme just say when you do it, the only people that will be there are the other seven people doing it. 

[00:28:19] Emma: Yeah. Okay. That's a good point. 

[00:28:21] Frances Frei: The safest laboratory in the planet, and you will have never met them before and you will never see them again. 

[00:28:27] Anne Morriss: Because here's the secret to improv that is counterintuitive.

The only way to be effective at it is to be totally plugged into the other person in the scene, which has nothing to do with you. It's practicing being totally, it's like a radical empathy in order to pull, getting outta your head. Getting outta your head because the, the path where you are having maximum impact is a road title, not about you.

[00:28:54] Emma: Definitely. 

[00:28:55] Anne Morriss: That's the name of the road. 

[00:28:56] Frances Frei: How often do you give talks at conferences? 

[00:28:58] Emma: Never. 

[00:28:59] Frances Frei: Yeah, so I think this is now a safe, because you can prep for it, but there's still a live element. It will still be uncomfortable. I'm in the safe experimenting because I want you to feel the heat rise. I want you to feel the sweat.

The goal is to be effective in the presence of fear. And the only way you get to do that, it's a learned behavior. You have to be like, oh, I was afraid these other 200 times and I got through it, and then your body will stop having its physical manifestations in quite as extreme ways. 

[00:29:40] Anne Morriss: So, and then Frances, can I push on that thing?

It's really powerful. 

And or not, right? Because some of the most amazing performers we know still sometimes, like their bodies get hijacked in, in, in a way that's totally rational. We just saw one of the greatest working guitar performers on the planet perform. And we happened to be in a seat where we could see her at an angle.

The first three songs, she was shaking as she was playing, singing beautifully, but her hands were shaking. And it was such a powerful image. 'cause this sometimes trips me up too. Like my voice will shake sometimes when I start speaking. And the antidote for me was not to stop my voice shaking. 'cause sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

Increasingly it happens less and less, but there are still times when I don't even know what the variable is and my voice will start shaking. The remedy is not to stop my voice shaking. The remedy is to not give a shit that it's shaking and to keep talking , right? 

[00:30:43] Frances Frei: And that image, and that's a learning by doing thing.

It's not something you can just think about and make it overcome. You have to put yourself in loads of positions when it happens. 

[00:30:53] Anne Morriss: And that's about reps and just trying it again and again, and, and that the image I go back to is this woman shaking, all the time. 

[00:31:01] Frances Frei: All right, so now if improv is too much and giving talks in conferences doesn't even also feel that good, although you can decide which one is safer, I'm now gonna give an easier one, which is, um, whatever it is that you have expertise in, teach. Hold classes.

Put yourself in a position of teaching because it, it also has that performance part to it, and that can convince us to get the anxiety. Like, it, it, it might tap into those. So that's the third example I would do. 

[00:31:41] Anne Morriss: And I'm gonna give you a fourth one as a, even further down the list in terms of stakes, is to

challenge yourself to show up in meetings the way you wanna show up. So give yourself like, stretch goals for, like, behaviors that you think are gonna be helpful to advancing this cause. We're happy to brainstorm them with you, but I, I suspect you might know what those would be. 

[00:32:07] Emma: Yeah. It's a really interesting concept of just this learning to be uncomfortable in this space.

So it would, yeah, it would be a really interesting process of offering that outside of my direct network, even still within the organization or extended beyond that, and I guess the whole talking or going and presenting anywhere. Uh, again, I've done it internally, but, uh, in my mind I thought, oh, I'm, I'm nowhere near ready where anybody would even want to listen to me. 

[00:32:35] Frances Frei: Because there's a low ceiling on people that need pristine conditions to thrive, and to Anne's point, that's not the impact we want you to have in the world.

Standup comedians will travel to 50 cities in 50 days just to get a group of strangers to try out their material. Because they know if people already know them, they'll be cheating and they won't be able to test the material as well. They go to the, just the worst places. 50 nights of travel to do it.

It's gonna be so much easier, but they're onto something. It, there really is, doing this with strangers is the way to hone the materials. 

[00:33:16] Anne Morriss: That's what performance excellence looks like, right? 50 different audiences, testing jokes in multiple variations. We wanna walk in the first time and hit it out of the park.

[00:33:28] Frances Frei: Everybody does. 

[00:33:29] Anne Morriss: And when we don't do that, we, we like weigh ourselves down with a story like, oh, I, I shouldn't be doing this, or I'm fundamentally flawed. Or there's like something broken here that can't be fixed. Listen, you took a swing, right? You didn't connect with the ball. We're gonna get you back up there with all these different other tactics to try.

All right. Did we achieve any of our objectives in this call? 

[00:33:55] Emma: Absolutely. I didn't know what exactly the result was gonna be, but all the metaphors and different ways of looking at things is exactly the way that I learn in something. So, you know, have the structure of the foundational piece, but then be able to relate it back to and directly think about how that impacts other pieces of my life.

[00:34:13] Anne Morriss: Oh, I love that. Beautiful ideas. My heart is soaring. Awesome. Well, it's been such a privilege to meet you and have this conversation and I think it's gonna be helpful to a lot of people listening as well. 

[00:34:24] Frances Frei: We are insanely optimistic about the before and after. 

[00:34:27] Emma: Thank you guys so much. I really appreciate your time.

[00:34:30] Anne Morriss: Go, go get it Emma. Get after it, as our 17-year-old son would say.

Frances, what do you want our listeners to take away from this conversation? 

[00:34:45] Frances Frei: Two things. One is that confidence is a byproduct. You have confidence on the way out, not the way in. I thought that was really powerful. 

[00:34:52] Anne Morriss: Does that line up with your experience with the world? 

[00:34:54] Frances Frei: It does. When you were talking, I'll tell you one of my hacks for confidence.

As you know, I am a confident teacher as long as I have an overabundance of content. 

[00:35:05] Anne Morriss: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a, that's a subset of prep. If you're, if you're teaching a, you want 120 minutes of material for a 60 minute class, yes. 

[00:35:12] Frances Frei: And then I'm great. Yeah. But if I have 50 minutes of material or 60 minutes of material for a 60 minute class?

[00:35:22] Anne Morriss: You are not a happy camper.

[00:35:23] Frances Frei: It's terrible. And it's all that emotional part. So I need an overabundance to calm the heck down. And this was a really instructional session for me, because when we doubled down on authenticity, we just wanna make sure we, are we easing up too much on empathy? And then when we've doubled down too much on empathy, are we easing up on authenticity?

I, I found that to be a very useful barometer. 

[00:35:47] Anne Morriss: And, and you joke that, you know, for some of us, you know, how authentic should I be? And you joke that, oh, 80, 75%, 75%, no one needs a hundred percent. Nobody needs all of it. But I think when we push on that, the issue is that sometimes when we are coming in strong and labeling it like I'm just being me, and I'm, I'm, this is my authentic version of me, what, what's happening is that our taking up space is getting in the way of other people showing up.

And if my focus is on myself, which is sometimes what that authenticity piece is about. It, it, it can get in the way of our ability to plug into the other humans in the room. 

[00:36:31] Frances Frei: I haven't received a lot of great advice from people other than you, but I have, you know, when people give prescriptions, I try to listen to the underlying diagnosis, but somebody who gave me a prescription that was enormously helpful.

It was our former dean at the Harvard Business School, Nitin Nohria, and he believed in my potential for impact and then he would see me, you know, getting in the way of myself . And he very gently said to me, why don't you try coming in, in the middle of conversations? It was so freaking helpful to me.

[00:37:01] Anne Morriss: Yeah. 

[00:37:02] Frances Frei: And I just, blind faith, that just, he said it. I trust him, respect him, love him. So I was like, okay. And it helped so much. 

[00:37:12] Anne Morriss: That's a really, it's a really interesting tactic that came up in the conversation. That tactic, I think for people struggling. 

[00:37:18] Frances Frei: For people like me and Emma. 

[00:37:19] Anne Morriss: Yeah, that can be really useful guidance. And I think what I needed to hear early in my career is, why don't you come in a little earlier? Because my comfort zone is to sit back, hear the different perspectives, figure out what I think. 

[00:37:34] Frances Frei: Try to maybe just come back, come in at the meeting. After the meeting. 

[00:37:37] Anne Morriss: Yeah. Like even better, right? Let me take all the data in. Right? And then, you know, we'll huddle and I'll, I'll tell you what I think. But the reason to pull people like me in early too, and sometimes we need help, right?

[00:37:52] Frances Frei: You know, another thing that when Emma said that she was doing things like adding onto the end of paragraphs or sentences, "does that make sense?"

And it was almost like empathy theater. 

[00:38:05] Anne Morriss: Yes. 

[00:38:06] Frances Frei: So this was a very empathetic person who didn't know how to genuinely express empathy. So she did things as empathy theater, but if she genuinely said after she did something, "does that make sense?" Right, right? Yes. She could have used exactly the same words and it wouldn't have been empathy theater there. 

[00:38:24] Anne Morriss: But this whole category of empathy theater is an interesting one because I do find that you, there is a little bit of fake it till you make it that it does work for empathy.

[00:38:34] Frances Frei: It does work for empathy. Yeah. 

[00:38:36] Anne Morriss: Like I will coach a lot of people like you and Emma , you know, sitting at the top of organizations, 'cause you people disproportionately find your way up there. Authenticity 

[00:38:44] Frances Frei: and logic, baby . 

[00:38:46] Anne Morriss: Right? And I'll say, even if you're not interested, ask the fucking question. Because here's what's gonna happen. By the time that other person starts talking and you have to listen because you asked the question, you will get interested. Oh yeah. In what they have to say. 

[00:39:00] Frances Frei: They say such good things and they take it in so many unexpected directions. 

[00:39:05] Anne Morriss: So even like that kind of guidance, like way to come in on the conversation, you know?

Myself, people, you, you cannot make a statement until you ask two questions in the next meeting. You know, like those are the kinds of experiments you can run. Yeah. And you can say what you wanna say and what you came to say. But you gotta ask people two questions and anything counts. How was your weekend counts, right? 

[00:39:26] Frances Frei: And it's so good. 

[00:39:28] Anne Morriss: But bonus points of, you're saying it in in the course of the meeting about work. Yes. Yeah . But you have to do it, 'cause as we've said before on this show, all of your hopes and dreams are on the other side, are on the other side of discomfort. 

[00:39:40] Frances Frei: Yeah. 

[00:39:43] Anne Morriss: Thank you all so much for joining us and listening to this episode.

Your participation helps us make great episodes like this. Please keep reaching out to us. Email, call, text us at fixable@ted.com or 2 3 4 fixable. That's 2 3 4 3 4 9 2 2 5 3. 

[00:40:00] Frances Frei: And we read and listen to every single one of your messages. 

[00:40:03] Anne Morriss: And we see ourselves in them. 

[00:40:06] Frances Frei: Oh my gosh.

[00:40:15] Anne Morriss: Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morriss.

[00:40:21] Frances Frei: And me, Frances Frei . 

[00:40:23] Anne Morriss: This episode was produced by Rahima Nasa from Pushkin Industries. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Cheng, Daniella Ballarezo, and Roxanne Hai Lash. And our show was mixed by Louis at Story Yard.