ReThinking with Adam Grant
Richard Branson on saying yes now and figuring it out later
June 18, 2024
[00:00:00] Richard Branson:
We don't live forever and we might as well throw ourselves wholeheartedly into our lives. And if one ended up going earlier, at least we've lived very, very full lives.
[00:00:12] Adam Grant:
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.
My guest today is Sir Richard Branson, founder of the Virgin Group. He's built more than 400 businesses from music, radio, and mobile to airlines, rail, cruise, and space tourism. In his spare time, Richard's been a passionate philanthropist and an advocate for sustainability and human rights naturally.
He's also broken world records in hot air ballooning and kite surfing.
[00:00:51] Richard Branson:
I think most people want fun. They want to enjoy themselves. They want people to be human.
[00:00:56] Adam Grant:
I got to see Richard being human a few years ago when we spent a week doing STRIVE, an endurance challenge. His family leads to support education.
[00:01:04] Richard Branson:
My kids organize these extremely challenging trips where it's extreme biking and hiking and, and climbing of mountains and with fascinating groups of people. And we do talks on each of these trips about reforming education.
[00:01:20] Adam Grant:
Richard has a new audio book out called Losing and Finding My Virginity, which tells his life story and offers a wealth of lessons about entrepreneurship, risk taking, and leadership, which are some of the themes of our conversation today.
[00:01:38] Richard Branson:
Okay, let's give it a go. Thank you.
[00:01:41] Adam Grant:
You've hired quite a good voice double.
[00:01:43] Richard Branson:
Oh, you wanted to talk to the real Richard did you?
[00:01:45] Adam Grant:
I did. I did. I was hoping he would show up.
[00:01:48] Richard Branson:
He's in the room next door. Hang on. Lemme just go and get him one second. He actually doesn't want to talk to the voice double. He wants to talk to Richard.
Is he is? He hasn't gone downstairs, has he? Ah. Thank you.
[00:02:00] Adam Grant:
I, I have a whole quiz prepared to find out if it's the real you.
[00:02:05] Richard Branson:
Hi, who's that? Adam?
[00:02:07] Adam Grant:
It is.
[00:02:08] Richard Branson:
Oh, it's Richard here. Good to talk to you. Um.
[00:02:16] Adam Grant:
So, glad you could make it. We met, I guess, the first time about 10 years ago, and I was stunned. I was unprepared for the fact that you're actually pretty shy, and I was curious about why.
[00:02:23] Richard Branson:
I was so shy when I was young that I remember the first time I ever did a radio interview. The interviewer sent me two tapes. One, one tape was longer than the other. The tape that was longer than the other was all the errors and ums that he'd cut out the interview, and he left a much shorter tape that sounded very, very eloquent.
My mother tried to. Say that shyness was a, a form of selfishness and therefore get up on stage and, and perform and think of other people and don't think of yourself and, and that should help you out of your shyness and in time. I think I've largely overcome it.
[00:03:06] Adam Grant:
When psychologists study shyness, they often find that it, it stems from a fear of negative social evaluation, being worried that strangers are gonna judge you, and it seems you had good reason growing up to be concerned about how people would judge you.
Talk to me a little bit about your early struggles with dyslexia.
[00:03:24] Richard Branson:
So, I mean, first of all, a most bizarre name for people who have difficult pronouncing and spelling things. But anyway, dys dyslexia was something that didn't exist when I was young. Anybody who was dyslexic was, was just seen as slightly stupid at school.
And you'd sit at the back of the class and you, you'd be doing anything really, but listening to what was going on in the blackboard and so conventional classes just passed me by and age 15, and I decided to quit school and start a magazine to campaign against the school system and to campaign against the Vietnamese war.
And I found that the education I got from being out in the real world and doing things that I was interested in, I largely overcame my dyslexia. And if I'm ever talking to somebody who's dyslexic or a parent of somebody who's dyslexic, I'll, I'll just, you know, try to encourage them to concentrate on the things that you love and the rest will catch up in time.
Don't worry, you know too much about it. Mo. I, I think an enormous amount of entrepreneurs were dyslexic, are dyslexic or have ADHD, and I think at some of that is trying to overcome the struggles that we had when we were younger.
[00:04:43] Adam Grant:
What was the struggle like?
[00:04:45] Richard Branson:
It comes out differently in different people, you know, a aged 50.
I I was doing a, a board meeting where I asked whether that was good news or bad news when a, a set of figures were given and they'd used the word net profit. And by then I was running the largest group of private companies in Europe. And, and I remember one of the directors took me outside the boardroom and said, “You know, you dunno the difference between net and gross. I think Richard.”
And I said, “Well, I hate to admit it, but, but that's right.” And so he pulls out a sheet of paper, he colors the paper blue, then he puts a, a fishing net in it and then he puts some fish in the net and he says, you know, that's your profit and the rest is your turnover, the greater ocean.
And ever since then I've been name dropping net, uh, net this and gross that, and very chuffed. It's strange little things like that. But when it comes to creating things or you know, ma making sure that we run the best airline, the best cruise, then, then I, I can deal with all that. And then when I was trying to balloon around the world, they had a big sign on what one lever, which said this signs specifically for Richard “Do not pull”, which was the lever that separated the balloon from the capsule.
So dyslexia for different people comes out in different ways and you can, to a large extent, o overcome it as you get older. I think.
[00:06:03] Adam Grant:
Well, you certainly have. Um, so dyslexia was, was one of the, I think, the defining experiences of your childhood. Another one, uh, I think happened when you were five years old, uh, when your parents told you to get out of the car and navigate your own way home.
Uh, I'd love to hear you tell that story because it's, it's honestly hard to imagine in this day and age.
[00:06:26] Richard Branson:
Yeah. I mean, my mum would've been arrested today, but in, in those days, had had felt, she had permission to bring, bring her kids up to stand in their own two feet. And so on this particular occasion, I, we were going to granny's house and I I suspect I was being a bit noisy in the back of the car.
She just stopped the car, opened the door, pushed me out and said, “You find, you find your own way there.” And it was about two or three miles still to go across the country. And I got suitably lo lost and ended up in somebody's farmhouse and a rather mortified mother about two hours later came to collect me.
But that was very much her approach, and I'm grateful for the way that we were brought up. I remember when, when I started the magazine on the back of the magazine, I, I wrote a a quote which said something like, “The brave may not live forever, but the cautious do not live at all.” And I think I've lived by that mantra, and I've been lucky enough to live by that mantra ever since and and had the most extraordinary, incredible experiences.
[00:07:27] Adam Grant:
It sounds like this is the genesis of your, “Screw it. Let's do it philosophy.”
[00:07:32] Richard Branson:
I'm known as Dr. Yes. My approach is just to screw it. Let's do it and let's give it a try. And, and that's got me into trouble in on occasions, but it, it's resulted in a fascinating life of building, you know, many, many, many different ventures in many different areas.
[00:07:48] Adam Grant:
This definitely tracks with one of my favorite pieces of advice from you. You said that, “If somebody offers you an amazing opportunity, but you're not sure you can do it, say yes, then learn how to do it later.”
[00:07:59] Richard Branson:
Most jobs you can learn on the job in a couple of months, and most things I think you can learn in a couple of months.
Yeah, so if you're offered something by and large, just say yes. And if you can't actually do it, go and have a quick crash course and learn how to do it, and then give it a go.
[00:08:18] Adam Grant:
You've made a career out of hiring people and surrounding yourself with people who have that attitude, who are just willing to learn on the fly.
How do you gauge that when you're meeting somebody new, whether they're gonna bring that to the table?
[00:08:31] Richard Branson:
A company is just a group of people, and so we need people who genuinely care about the people who work for them to be run running our companies. And so we don't ask for exam results. Um, give you o one example.
I had a you know, a bunch of people coming to England for a TV show I was doing, and I sent a fairly elderly taxi driver to the airport, about 85 years old to pick them up. And they arrived at my house in Oxford, and the elderly taxi driver came into the kitchen where they all were. And I happened to be the elderly taxi driver.
I ripped off the skin on my face that had been stuck on. And there were a couple of people at the airport who didn't care. Uh. For the, the, the elderly taxi driver and made him carry the bags and joked about him because of his age. Um, anyway, they got sent home, the people who cared about people and had great personality and, uh, they stayed on.
Um, one of those people, um, happened to be Sarah Blakely, who went on to and, uh, start Spanx. Um, and she'd been particularly kind to the taxi driver and you could tell that she'd be very kind to people who work for her as well.
[00:09:44] Adam Grant:
Uh, I love that example. It, it speaks to something I've long seen as a psychologist, which is that the true test of character is how people treat others who lack power.
That there are so many people who are great at kissing up and kicking down. And what I really wanna know is how do you interact with somebody who can do you no good? I think that this, this actually goes to one of your core leadership principles, Richard. It's train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to.
Uh, talk to me about what treating people well looks like to you.
[00:10:16] Richard Branson:
It's giving them the freedom to be themselves. I mean, people love working for Virgin because they're given that freedom to be themselves.
[00:10:24] Adam Grant:
I remember walking into a gathering of CEOs. I was a brand new author. I felt like I did not belong in the room, and you walked up to me and introduced yourself and said, “Hi, I'm Richard.”
I'm like, “Yes, I know who you are.” But it was such an unexpected moment of, you know, of you going to the least powerful person in the room. And being interested in having a conversation. And then we sat around a table. There must've been 30 leaders there, and you were the only one taking notes. And I was just struck by how interested you were in listening to other people and, and learning from them.
[00:10:57] Richard Branson:
I love learning, first of all, and I remember I left school at 15, so I've seen life as one long university education that I never had. I can never understand how people can have a meeting with somebody and not take notes. If you're having a meeting with a group of people where you're planning, you know, to sort out issues and not take notes, you're only gonna remember two or three things from that meeting.
And quite often from a meeting, you might have a list of 20 ideas that come out of it. And when you go back to your room, you can maybe find that there are some of those that you, it's not worth following up on, but maybe 10, 15 of those ideas. It's important to follow up on, and it's very important to get back to the person who came up with those ideas and either respond positively or say why you disagree.
And by dealing with all those small things quickly, you go from uh, potentially becoming an average company into becoming an exceptional company and uh, the staff who work there are really appreciative that, that, that their issues have been dealt with.
[00:12:05] Adam Grant:
It, it certainly tracks with, with a body of evidence suggesting that listening skills are every bit as important as talking skills in leadership, and that listening may be the most underrated leadership skill.
Uh, why do you think it's so rare?
[00:12:19] Richard Branson:
Maybe because they get promoted.
[00:12:21] Adam Grant:
People get promoted by being great talkers and then they get, they get a lot of positive reinforcement and a lot of reward for their ability to deliver an inspiring speech, to make a persuasive argument. Um, and they end up kind of thinking that my contribution here is my charisma.
And the more I talk, the more other people learn, forgetting that their job is to learn too.
[00:12:43] Richard Branson:
Hearing your own voice, you know what you think, so you're not learning anything from it. Occasionally it's good for you to talk, to share ideas with other people and to, and, and share what you've learned, but you are not actually gaining anything when I'm on the subject of presentations.
One thing I cannot stand is when somebody's talking and they put their words up behind them in PowerPoints, I just want to go screaming mad. People should just be themselves. You know, stand up to other, as human beings and not talk, talk to people or, or even worse still, you know, talk to the blackboard.
So if you ever come and meet me, any of you out there, please do not bring your PowerPoint presentations. Thank you.
[00:13:30] Adam Grant:
It speaks to something else that, that I think is distinctive about your leadership, which is fun.
[00:13:35] Richard Branson:
Mm-hmm.
[00:13:35] Adam Grant:
I think, I think you're anti boredom.
[00:13:37] Richard Branson:
Most people are anti boredom. You know, the danger is that certain people, when they get into positions of power, they feel that they have to be the boss.
They feel they have to wear the tie. They feel they, they need the suit, that they need to be slightly aloof from all the people that are working for them. And that's a big mistake I think.
[00:13:57] Adam Grant:
The last time I made the mistake of wearing a tie in your presence, we were in front of a live audience at Wharton and you picked up scissors and cut the tie off of me.
[00:14:05] Richard Branson:
Anything wrong with this man?
[00:14:07] Conference Guest:
He's wearing a tie.
[00:14:08] Richard Branson:
Exactly. Exactly. We're not gonna allow that to.
[00:14:20] Adam Grant:
So, Richard, you've only been here for three minutes and you're already defacing Penn property. That was a pen tie. Thank you for that. Well, um, ladies and gentlemen, sir Richard Branson, thank you.
[00:14:34] Richard Branson:
I still ha I still have the tie and I, I'll have to get you to sign it.
[00:14:37] Adam Grant:
These are not just publicity stunts. I remember when we were on the STRIVE Challenge, you ran and did a cannonball into the hot tub just to get a laugh out of a small group.
Why are you doing a cannonball into a hot tub?
[00:14:50] Richard Branson:
To make people smile, to break the ice. I think if you're the chairman of a company, you know you should be the first into the pool, fully dressed, and then everybody else can get in the pool fully dressed and everybody can have a great party. So it's breaking the ice basically.
If you're stuffy and you don't let your head down, then everybody else feels that they have to be stuffy. But it may go back, you know, since you're good at psychoanalyzing people, it may go back to my mother telling me to get up on stage and perform, but I'll leave you to, to analyze me.
[00:15:22] Adam Grant:
Well, I'm, I'm just laughing at the, the letting your hair down thing, because some of us don't have hair to let down.
[00:15:29] Richard Branson:
I'm happy to lend you some.
[00:15:31] Adam Grant:
You do have an abundance. I'll take it to your point about breaking the ice. I found in some of my research that when leaders laugh at themselves. People are more willing to challenge them and also more willing to challenge themselves. You're signaling, “Hey, like I don't take myself that seriously. I take my work seriously.”
[00:15:50] Richard Branson:
The best leaders are people who lead by example. They'll roll up their sleeves. They'll do what they ask their team to do. If you can have, have fun, if you can joke with each other, it's infectious. And a lot of these things do stem from the top. What what can happen in some companies is people bring in the wrong person at the top, and the effect that can have right through the company is very damaging.
[00:16:15] Adam Grant:
Uh, I think you, you'd probably be the first to say that you've had more bad ideas. Then most people have ideas. And I wonder, I wonder if you could talk about some of the dumbest ideas you've bet on or maybe your, your proudest failure.
[00:16:31] Richard Branson:
Our most notable failure was taking on Coca-Cola.
[00:16:35] Adam Grant:
Oh, this is Virgin Cola. Sure.
[00:16:37] Richard Branson:
Virgin Virgin Cola. And for a couple of years we really thought we were going to take Coke and Pepsi down. And then we started going into Europe and then I made the mistake of landing with a Sherman tank in Times Square and crushing lots of Coke and Pepsi cans, and Cola was squirting everywhere.
And we then eked up the Coke sign in Times Square and turned the tarrot on it. And anyway, it all backfired horribly. So that was one of the ones out of quite a few that got away. It was a lot of fun. It didn't do the brand any harm. It taught us some lessons. I bet the main, the main lesson was, you know, if you're gonna take on a giant, make sure you're much better than them.
But the Virgin brand, particularly in U Europe, it, it doesn't matter too much if you tilt and, and fail people quite like the underdog. You don't want to always be the, the smart ass that is, is successful. And so you just have to pick yourself up, shake yourself down, and try again.
[00:17:34] Adam Grant:
More recently, you've shifted gears a little bit on space flight, and it reminds me of another one of your quotes, which is “Only a fool never changes his mind.”
I'd love to hear you talk about just changing your mind in general, but also what's the evolution of your thinking on commercial space flight?
[00:17:52] Richard Branson:
What we're going to be doing is, uh, concentrating on building the delta class of spaceship and put all our energies into that so that we actually then end up with a, a, a fleet of spaceships.
And then I think we can in time start getting the price of space travel down. I mean, it's not gonna happen immediately 'cause it space is expensive and cost a lot of money to get this far, but. You know, I was lucky enough to go to space a couple of years ago. It, it was the most extraordinary day of my life, and I, I look forward to sharing that experience with as many people as possible in my lifetime and in my kids' lifetimes in the years to come.
[00:18:33] Adam Grant:
Why was it the most extraordinary day of your life?
[00:18:36] Richard Branson:
Oof. Well, first of all, we'd spent 20 years working, working on this project. We'd had tears and, and joy along the way. People thought it would be impossible for somebody to build their own spaceship and mothership, and the day started at 2:00 AM in the morning with me hearing noises in the kitchen and going to the kitchen and finding Elon and his baby in the kitchen come to surprise us to see us off, which was very sporting of somebody who's also in the space business.
And then my kids got up and it's difficult to put one's fingers on it, but just the whole day was one.
One of those. Pinch me moment days, and when we finally got to space and just being able to unbuckle and then, and then just float, float up into the top of the spaceship and look back at this extraordinary Earth that we live on. And I remember the next day waking up and my eyes were closed and I just thought.
“Did I dream yesterday?” And then sort of slowly opening one eye and realizing, “Yes, I'm in New Mexico and yes, we really did go to space yesterday.” You want to go to space one day? I think.
[00:19:43] Adam Grant:
Do I? Yeah. I don't know if I do.
[00:19:45] Richard Branson:
Ah, there we go. All right. Well I've, you're the first person I've met who doesn't want to go to space.
[00:19:50] Adam Grant:
I think it would be a lot of fun. I think it's hard to say no to.
[00:19:53] Richard Branson:
Yeah.
[00:19:54] Adam Grant:
But I feel like the last time you talked me into doing something I wasn't sure if I was ready to do, I still haven't recovered from paragliding.
[00:20:02] Richard Branson:
It's good to set oneself challenges every, every year, and it's been great to have you along.
[00:20:07] Adam Grant:
I don't think I've ever enjoyed suffering quite so much as that week. It was a great stretch experience to, to bike 70 kilometers up a mountain without toe clips. Oops.
[00:20:18] Richard Branson:
Nah, no. We'll make it longer for you next time.
[00:20:20] Adam Grant:
Thank you. You're always looking out for me.
I wanna, I wanna transition to a, a lightning round now.
[00:20:29] Richard Branson:
I, I am all ready to go.
[00:20:31] Adam Grant:
What is the worst career advice you ever got?
[00:20:36] Richard Branson:
Do what you know, you must concentrate on your onions, and I think most of my successful businesses were in industries where I had no industry experience at all.
[00:20:48] Adam Grant:
Which I think is a great way to overcome what psychologists call cognitive entrenchment, where you get trapped in assumptions that you don't even know you're making.
And when you're fresh to an industry from the outside, you get that, that ability to, to see what's taken for granted and challenge it.
[00:21:03] Richard Branson:
When we next meet. You can, you can explain what cognitive entrenchment means. I think I've got there.
[00:21:09] Adam Grant:
I I, I think you nailed it. What is something you've rethought or changed your mind about lately?
[00:21:15] Richard Branson:
I used to think that for the first impressions of a person I could sum up in the first 30 seconds, 60 seconds of meeting them. Since then, I've realized how wrong I was. Maybe when I was younger, I just had to make first impressions, had to move quicker. But anyway, I've, I've learned you've got to give people longer before you'd make judgements.
[00:21:35] Adam Grant:
Uh, what is a prediction you have for the, the future, a couple decades ahead?
[00:21:41] Richard Branson:
Two decades from now, the world should be powered by clean energy. I'm going to have a world where the energy is gonna cost next to nothing. Um, and it'll be powered by wind, solar, possibly nuclear. And hopefully we'll get to that world as quick as possible so that we can avoid the worst effects of of climate change.
[00:22:03] Adam Grant:
I'd love a hot take. Uh, is there an unpopular opinion you stand by?
[00:22:08] Richard Branson:
The thing that I would die for and, and I spent most of my lifetime fighting, is punishing people for taking drugs. It's been one of the worst things that's happened in my lifetime, the last 70 years. The war on drugs has done untold damage and drugs should be treated as a health problem, not a criminal problem, and part of something called the Global Drug Commission.
And we'll keep fighting to change government's attitudes to this problem, warning people of the dangers, but helping people when they have problems.
[00:22:38] Adam Grant:
Another cause you've been very active on is, uh, fighting against the death penalty.
What do you think is the most important reason why we should abolish the death penalty?
[00:22:47] Richard Branson:
Europe abolished the death penalty and there has not been an explosion of, of crime as a result. It is wrong for the state to be executing people.
[00:22:57] Adam Grant:
Well said. Uh, you were close with Nelson Mandela. What was the greatest lesson that he taught you?
[00:23:04] Richard Branson:
Forgiveness. I think Mandela and Archbishop Tutu were wonderfully optimistic people, but their greatest strength was the importance of forgiveness. And by forgiving the white person in South Africa for apartheid, um, for forgiving people who committed atrocities during apartheid, they managed to, um, create the rainbow nation that is, that is South Africa today.
And so forgiveness, I think is, is such a, such an important part of their lives.
[00:23:37] Adam Grant:
Who's a leader you admire?
[00:23:39] Richard Branson:
Mary Robinson is an extraordinary woman. She was president of Ireland many years ago. I've never known anybody work so hard and so relentlessly to tackle the problems of the world, whether it's nuclear disarmament, whether it's climate change, whether it's women's rights, whether it's species, depredation, and she does it with such, such a smile, such good humor.
Um, and she'll speak the truth to the most powerful people in the world, and they'll listen to her 'cause she's, she's so pleasant, so lovely and so forceful.
[00:24:15] Adam Grant:
Next question is, of all the things you could have risked your life on, why a hot air balloon?
[00:24:21] Richard Branson:
I love to, to do things that haven't been done before.
Nobody had crossed the Atlantic or the Pacific or gone around the world in hot air balloons and the internet didn't exist in those days. Hot air balloons are very big, so it was plenty of room to have Virgin splashed right across the side side of it, but it also just ended up being the most incredible adventures.
Yeah, we did, we did break the record for the first across the Atlantic and the Pacific, and we had lots of stories to tell our grandkids about as a result.
[00:24:51] Adam Grant:
Well, you, you told some of them very powerfully in, in the new audio book, and I, I was curious, Richard, of all the things you could spend your time on, like why 27 hours reading your life story?
That's, that's a huge time commitment.
[00:25:06] Richard Branson:
I have grandchildren, and I think if you, I think if you lead a full life, as most of us do, you don't have to be in the public eye to have led a full life that, that you should share your life with other people. And, um, I just wish that my grandparents had you know, left audio books for me or my great grandparents, you know, my grandfather fought in the trenches in the First World War and was gassed and, you know, it would would've been wonderful to have read his voice.
People said, you, you could do it on AI. You know, you don't need to bother anymore. I really think it's important that, that human beings, you know, still do things like that so that people really know that it is, it is. You know that person doing it, and I think it's AI becomes more and more popular. I think it's even more important that people hear the real voice on things like audio books.
[00:25:57] Adam Grant:
You are hyper competitive. Uh, I think when you play chess, when you're riding a bike, when you're playing tennis, when you're fighting British Airways, you obviously get a real kick out of going up against, uh, a tough opponent. What's behind that? Do you love to win? Do you hate to lose? Like what? What drives your competitive spirit?
[00:26:18] Richard Branson:
So. I, I love competing, but once the competition is over, I really do not mind whether I've won or lost. So, I remember trying to go around the world in a hot air balloon. Um, the last day we ended up crashing in the Pacific just before we got the whole way around the world. And I remember thinking the, the next day, you know, “It really doesn't matter that we didn't go around the world.”
It would've been nice, but it was just an extraordinary flight over the Himalayas and over China. And I can enjoy, enjoy the wonderful memories of it if you're playing a game of chess. I love to use my brain to try to beat my competitor, but the second that, that the game is over, I, I don't. Ever dwell on, uh, on not succeeding.
And the same in business. As long as I've tried really hard to overcome a problem. The moment I realize that I'm not going to succeed at it, I, I'm happy just the next day to, to move on and, and put that behind me.
[00:27:19] Adam Grant:
So for you, the competition is, is not about the outcome as much as the challenge?
[00:27:23] Richard Branson:
Exactly.
[00:27:25] Adam Grant:
Richard, what's a question you have for me?
[00:27:27] Richard Branson:
What's the most common assumption people make that, that they need to think again on?
[00:27:32] Adam Grant:
Gosh, if I had to pick one, it's probably what I've come to think of is the, I'm not biased bias, where people walk around thinking that other people are capable of being irrational and illogical and they have flaws in their thinking, but not me.
I'm neutral, I'm objective, I'm rational. And once you believe that. You are vulnerable to all sorts of opinions and assumptions that are wrong because you think you're smarter than other people and you, you think you're more likely to be correct than other people. And I think that is an incredibly dangerous way to live.
[00:28:11] Richard Branson:
Well, that, that's, um, beautifully put. And on that, I, I'm gonna let you have the last word. So, thank you so much for, um, your time. I can switch it all around for you.
[00:28:20] Adam Grant:
Thank you for your time, Richard. This is a blast. Thank you for being here. We look forward to seeing you again soon. Same. Thanks a lot. Same.
Cheers.
[00:28:27] Richard Branson:
Cheers.
[00:28:27] Adam Grant:
Bye.
My favorite takeaway from this conversation is about self-deprecating humor. Insecure leaders ridicule others, but secure leaders laugh at themselves. Richard shows that great leaders take their work seriously, but they don't take themselves too seriously. The ability to make fun of yourself is a mark of humility and a catalyst for learning from mistakes.
ReThinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. This show is part of the TED Audio Collective, and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our producers are Hannah Kingsley-Ma and Aja Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hansdale Hsu, and Alison Leyton Brown.
Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winik, Samiah Adams, Michelle Quint, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, and Whitney Pennington Rodgers.
Next question is, who is your favorite nephew?
[00:29:27] Richard Branson:
I think I am not allowed to have favorite nephews, but I think the only nephew that you know is, uh, is Noah. So, I think I'm gonna say no 'cause he's more likely to be listening to this than any of the other ones. And he is very special.
[00:29:41] Adam Grant:
And now you know who asked it.
Okay.